Skrevet av Emne: Kun karbs etter trening eller karbs/protein?  (Lest 16383 ganger)

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SV: Kun karbs etter trening eller karbs/protein?
« #15 : 08. januar 2005, 13:50 »
Er det foretatt noe studie på folk med diabetes Huh
Jeg har diabetes og da blir det naturligvis ingen insulin produksjon

Du må være din egen bukspyttkjertel. Dvs. tilsette insulin med insulinpennen din.
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SV: Kun karbs etter trening eller karbs/protein?
« #16 : 08. januar 2005, 14:06 »
nyttig lesing detta!
vil det si at jeg burde ta en gainer etter trening isteden for å ta karbo så vente ca 30 min med protein?

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SV: Kun karbs etter trening eller karbs/protein?
« #17 : 08. januar 2005, 14:10 »
Er det foretatt noe studie på folk med diabetes Huh
Jeg har diabetes og da blir det naturligvis ingen insulin produksjon

Forhør deg med legen din om hvordan du skal gjøre det etter trening (husk å nevne hvor mye karbohydrater du tar).

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SV: Kun karbs etter trening eller karbs/protein?
« #18 : 08. januar 2005, 21:40 »
nyttig lesing detta!
vil det si at jeg burde ta en gainer etter trening isteden for å ta karbo så vente ca 30 min med protein?

Du kan ta en gainer etter treningen eller ta karboen og proteinene på samme tid etter trening..

Om de ikke smaksmessig kan blandes så drikker du bare noen slurker protein, noen slurker karbohydrater osv til det er tomt...


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SV: Kun karbs etter trening eller karbs/protein?
« #19 : 09. januar 2005, 16:16 »
Ok, da blander jeg dem.
har nemlig fått høre av mange og lest på iform.no at man burde vente 20-30 min med protein...

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SV: Kun karbs etter trening eller karbs/protein?
« #20 : 02. februar 2005, 12:09 »
Interessant. Jeg for min del har bare inntatt kreatin og karbo rett etter trening, for så å vente 30-40 minutter med proteinet.

Det har jeg også gjort!! 20-30 min etter karbo/kreatin/glutamine drikken tok jeg protein drikken. Også får jeg høre om dette!! Og du som var så sikker på dette UAC. Wink
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SV: Kun karbs etter trening eller karbs/protein?
« #21 : 02. februar 2005, 12:22 »
Jeg ER sikker på det enda jeg !!! OG jeg gjør det slik fremdeles trass i denne artikkelen. Du må huske på at det ikke nødvendigvis er noen sannheter her. Det er nok av artikkler som sier noe annet, og om du leser hele tråden vil du se at jeg har satt en god del spørsmålstegn ved denne artikkelen. Smiley
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SV: Kun karbs etter trening eller karbs/protein?
« #22 : 02. februar 2005, 13:27 »
Jeg ER sikker på det enda jeg !!! OG jeg gjør det slik fremdeles trass i denne artikkelen. Du må huske på at det ikke nødvendigvis er noen sannheter her. Det er nok av artikkler som sier noe annet

Kunne du kommet med noen linker ? Jeg skulle gjerne sett litt på argumentene bak tankegangen med å vente med proteinet.
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SV: Kun karbs etter trening eller karbs/protein?
« #23 : 02. februar 2005, 13:30 »
Tanken er jo å få insulinet opp, for så å holde det jevnt og høyest mulig lenge. Jeg er sterkt tilhenger av også å tilføre karbs jevnlig etter trening sammen med protein, men kun raske karbs først. Skal se om jeg finner den igjen, men sitter på jobb nå og har ikke tilgang til den herfra. Men skal kikke. Smiley
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SV: Kun karbs etter trening eller karbs/protein?
« #24 : 02. februar 2005, 15:04 »
Uansett hvor mye insulin du har, vil det brytes ned proteiner om du venter med proteininntaket. Sad

Husker ikke hvem som postet det, men det var et studie som tok for seg valget mellom karbohydrater etter trening, proteiner etter trening, eller proteiner og karbohydrater etter trening.

De som vokste best var karb+protein-gruppen, så kom protein-gruppen, så, tilslutt, karb-gruppen.

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SV: Kun karbs etter trening eller karbs/protein?
« #25 : 02. februar 2005, 15:14 »
Jeg vet ikke helt UAC.. Det er mye som strider imot det du sier her og når undersøkelser beviser at karb/protein inntak var det beste rett etter trening så velger jeg å stole på det. Hvorfor skulle de lyve? For at vi skal få dårligere resultat av treningen vår? Hva skulle de oppnå med det?
There is no such thing as "working too hard"...

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SV: Kun karbs etter trening eller karbs/protein?
« #26 : 02. februar 2005, 15:17 »
Uansett hvor mye insulin du har, vil det brytes ned proteiner om du venter med proteininntaket. Sad



Dette vil i så fall være avhengig av mengden protein man tar FØR trening, om som er en del av kostholdet generelt sett. Dessuten var ikke hensikten min kun mengden insulin, men også hvor lenge det vil lønne seg å holde den oppe etter trening. Smiley

Jeg mener egentlig at det er ganske meningsløst å forandre en liten faktor av et kosthold for å måle det. Kroppens anabole og katabole prosesser pågår jo til enhver tid, og det er mye mer en akkurat timeingen av den shaken etter trening som kan optimaliseres. Men det er vel en helt annen historie.


Jeg vet ikke helt UAC.. Det er mye som strider imot det du sier her og når undersøkelser beviser at karb/protein inntak var det beste rett etter trening så velger jeg å stole på det. Hvorfor skulle de lyve? For at vi skal få dårligere resultat av treningen vår? Hva skulle de oppnå med det?

Og hvorfor skulle jeg ha interesse av å lyve ?? Som sagt, det finnes mye motstridene informasjon her og dette vil være avhengig av det totale kostholdet.
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SV: Kun karbs etter trening eller karbs/protein?
« #27 : 02. februar 2005, 15:55 »
Hehe, har ikke sagt at du lyver, men det kan jo hende du tar feil? what
There is no such thing as "working too hard"...

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SV: Kun karbs etter trening eller karbs/protein?
« #28 : 02. februar 2005, 15:56 »
Klart, det kan hende det. Jeg kan ikke påstå at nettopp jeg har riktig. Men det er usikkerhet ute å går her. Og ikke minst så må man se helheten i kosthold før man forandrer på noen slike faktorer. Smiley
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SV: Kun karbs etter trening eller karbs/protein?
« #29 : 08. februar 2005, 10:12 »


Kunne du kommet med noen linker ? Jeg skulle gjerne sett litt på argumentene bak tankegangen med å vente med proteinet.


Med tanke på at artikkelforfatteren i denne sammenhengen blir litt "suspekt", så kommer vel denne innom temaet uansett. Men, jeg har desverre ikke den beste orden i arkivet mitt, og finner ikke igjen den jeg egentlig var ute etter...... Sad

------------

The Anabolic Nutrient Timing Factor

The Real Science Behind Building
Muscle Mass Without Drugs.
By Paul Cribb B.H.Sci.HMS.Hons.
Director of Research, AST Sports Science.


n my previous article detailing the incredible research on VP2 Whey Isolate I blew away a lot of old bodybuilding myths with some clear science and straight facts on how to grow slabs of drug-free muscle.
Forget what you think you know about building muscle. The real science behind increasing lean muscle mass naturally involves a complex interaction between muscle, the liver, blood, and particularly, the amount of certain amino acids within these tissues. The "roid boys" can inject, eat any type of protein and grow muscle. However, to make gains natural bodybuilders have to play it a lot smarter. Drug free bodybuilders must concern themselves with what's happening within their entire physiology.
Simply eating or drinking protein does not guarantee it will be directed toward muscle growth. From a physiological perspective, growing muscle mass is your body's last priority. Manipulating the body's secretion of the hormone insulin via nutrition is the cornerstone of channeling the body's metabolic pathways toward muscle growth. The timing of certain nutrients with this period triggers powerful muscle building effects that you must take advantage of.
Manipulating insulin secretion: The secret to maximizing the effects of VP2 Whey Isolate.
Obtaining the potentially phenomenal results from VP2 Whey Isolate depends heavily on how you manage insulin secretion. Your physiology won't grow muscle simply because you've decided that's what you want to do! You have to slant every aspect your way. This starts and ends with the management of blood insulin.
Your pancreas secretes insulin into the bloodstream in response to the food you eat. Insulin drives nutrients into muscles by stimulating the sodium/potassium pump located within the cell surface. Stimulating this pump is required for active transports of essential nutrients (carbohydrates and amino acids) into cells. The presence of insulin channels nutritional materials toward cell anabolism (growth) and prevents catabolism (breakdown) (1).
Regarding insulin manipulation for muscle growth, there are two aspects we need to concern ourselves with.
•   The first critical step is knowing when to consume foods that produce an insulin peak and how to maintain steady insulin levels throughout the day, everyday.
•   Timing your protein intake to provide an abundance of the right building material when muscle cells are depleted and insulin levels are high is the second step.
If you're already using VP2 Whey Isolate then you'll know it's not like any other protein supplement. In fact, the drug-free athlete should view VP2 as a precise tool that (if used correctly) can accelerate recovery and muscle growth to directly enhance athletic performance. Yes, VP2 is that potent! However, poor nutritional choices after training shoot insulin management to pieces, and divert VP2 to other pathways, not muscle growth.
The problem.
VP2 Whey Isolate takes protein supplementation a giant step beyond regular whey. VP2 is totally short chain whey oligopeptides and these peptides are absorbed incredibly fast, in large amounts. VP2 provides a rapid surge of amino acids into the blood stream. In the hours directly after training this is precisely what is required to enhance the effects of bodybuilding exercise.
However, in the presence of low insulin levels research shows that whey protein is directed to energy production pathways (oxidation) within the body and not muscle building pathways (2).
All whey proteins possess similar amino acid profiles (it's the processing methods utilized that determines the quality of the whey). Whey's amino acid profile is very high in gluconeogenic amino acids. These are specific amino acids that can be easily utilized (oxidized) in energy pathways. As fate would have it, these particular amino acids are also the exact same ones critical to stimulating protein synthesis and muscle growth!
Therefore, if you take VP2 as a meal replacement when blood insulin levels are low, the protein will most likely go to restoring blood glucose and energy levels!

To ensure that VP2's peptides are directed toward cellular anabolism and muscle growth take VP2 only when insulin levels are high. That means soon after a meal or a dose of carbohydrates. Following this simple timing effect with insulin will ensure VP2's peptides are directed to muscle growth(1). Some supplement companies have formulated meal replacements based solely on whey protein. As you can now see, that's dumb!
Anabolic Nutrient Timing Rule #1.
After training get blood glucose and insulin levels up, quickly!
Intense exercise drops blood sugar levels about as low as the integrity of your average tabloid journalist. That is bad news! It means that blood insulin levels plummet also. Low blood sugar and insulin levels trigger the release of the catabolic hormones (glucagon and cortisol) to restore vital blood glucose levels. After training, restoration of blood glucose and energy is the number one priority of our physiology.
Unless the right nutritional material is present, the body will mobilize and sacrifice muscle amino acids in an attempt to restore glucose (energy) levels(3). This is muscle catabolism, and in terms of trying to build muscle, you've got to avoid this condition.
To immediately shift metabolic mechanisms toward muscle recovery and growth, your first priority after training should be to get blood glucose and insulin levels up quickly(2). To do this, consume a dose of simple, easily digested liquid carbohydrates after training (around 0.5 of a gram per kilogram of body weight).
The best carbs at this time are juices with higher sucrose to fructose content such as grape, orange, tangerine. They produce more rapid rise in blood sugar levels and are better choices than apple, grapefruit or pear juices, which have a higher fructose to sucrose ratio (4).
Most sports drinks contain a 10% or less carbohydrate concentration (sucrose and maltodextrin) therefore, they elevate blood sugar effectively. They're an excellent choice for the immediate post workout period and provide that insulin "spike" we're after.(4)
The 10% or less carbohydrate concentration in solution is optimal for rapid emptying from the stomach into the blood stream. The Gatorade Institute realized this long ago when it formulated its now famous sports drink.
Our simple carbohydrate drink will elevate insulin levels nicely, directly after training (the first half of creating the optimal biochemical environment). Now we must supply an abundance of the right protein directly to the muscles at precisely this time.
By adding one serving of VP2 to your carbohydrate drink, you have immediately completed creating the optimal biochemical environment for muscle recuperation and growth. Combining depleted muscle cells with a high concentration of blood amino acids and insulin means maximal uptake and powerful stimulation of protein synthesis (1). This liquid protein and carbohydrate drink mix will halt muscle breakdown and accelerate muscle building mechanisms by up to 400 percent! (2)
Anabolic Nutrient Timing Rule# 2.
Use Micronized Creatine twice in the 3 hours post training.
When used correctly creatine is one hell of a lean mass accelerator. Research on the cellular mechanisms of creatine transport clearly demonstrate that creatine uptake is determined by one thing; its own cellular concentration. Maximal uptake into muscle only occur when cells are depleted and blood creatine and insulin levels are high (5). Therefore, the best time to take your creatine is after your workout. Apart from rapid energy replenishment, creatine reduces intracellular damage and triggers potent independent mechanisms of muscle growth.
Therefore, to produce an even greater anabolic effect include one serving of micronized creatine into your carbohydrate/VP2 drink mix. An oral dose of 5 grams of creatine easily saturates plasma creatine levels for approx. 1-hour (5). So you don't waste your creatine, wait at least another hour before you take another 5 gram serving. But, once you've loaded that's really all the creatine you need to take. Two servings within 3-hours after training. Remember, the timing of nutrients is the key to maximal uptake and effectiveness, not the amount you shovel down.
*Side note; for truly incredible results, use a serving of Micronized Creatine HSC as your simple carbohydrate source mixed with your VP2 in water. The Hyper Saturation Complex is tailored to facilitate maximum creatine transport into muscle. Introduced at this time it will provide an even greater anabolic effect!
Anabolic Nutrient Timing Rule #3.
Eat a small, easily absorbed meal within 30 minutes!
Okay, our simple carb/VP2 mix consumed directly after training has switched anabolic mechanisms into overdrive. This initial liquid meal rapidly floods the bloodstream with glucose and amino acids. Insulin's role is to eliminate that surge by driving these nutrients into muscles and other tissues. However, now we have to maintain this effect and keep it going.
A slightly slower absorbing nutritional material is required at this time to prevent the drastic drop in blood sugar and insulin levels that will soon occur. If another meal is not consumed within 30 minutes of the simple carbohydrate and VP2 liquid meal, blood sugar and insulin levels will crash! You will be right back to where you started, a catabolic state!
For this meal, select low-fat, easily absorbed carbohydrates that are not high in fiber, and a lean source of protein. The best carbohydrate choices would be a baked potato, steamed white rice, or pasta. Stay away from junk foods such as burgers, fries, pizza etc. Foods high in fat are too slowly absorbed for this crucial period and ruin your chance for the optimal cellular uptake of nutrients. At this stage we are after rapid absorption.
Say you train in the morning, this meal could be a 6 or 7 egg white omelet on whole-wheat toast. If you train in the evening, this post-workout meal could simply be a grilled lemon chicken breast and rice or a small bowl of meat sauce and pasta. Consuming this meal soon after your VP2/carb drink, ensures that the peptides in VP2 whey isolate will be channeled toward muscle anabolism and not restoring blood glucose and energy levels.
Remember, consume this meal soon after your VP2/carb drink, to ensure that the peptides in VP2 whey isolate are channeled toward muscle anabolism and not restoring blood glucose and energy levels.
Keep your VP2 channeled toward muscle growth! Consume a small meal soon after your carbohydrate/VP2 drink mix.
Anabolic Nutrient Timing Rule #4.
"Lock" nutrients within muscle cells.
That first solid-food meal should not be too large. Keep your servings relatively small. Remember, this is a period you must capitalize on; cellular uptake and anabolic mechanisms are accelerated. Provide your body only with the finest, most rapidly absorbing, nutrient dense foods. Muscle cells will overcompensate their uptake of these nutrients to trigger cellular anabolic mechanisms. That's why you should also consume a delicious Ny-Tro Pro-40 shake within that first hour after training.
Even mixed in water, Ny-Tro Pro-40 is more like a delicious "desert". However it is the most nutrient-dense meal around, with 40 grams of a combination of high quality, slow releasing proteins, 30 grams of rapidly absorbed carbohydrates and 100% RDAs of all vitamins and minerals. Ny-Tro Pro-40 maintains the anabolic drive of nutrients into cells by maintaining blood glucose and insulin levels. This "locks" nutrients into muscle cells while providing other "nutrient hungry" tissues with a consistent steady stream of amino acids and carbohydrates (1).
There is still 2 hours left in the post training "nutritional window of opportunity"!
Research has shown that cellular up-take and anabolic mechanisms are tremendously accelerated for three hours after intense training (2). So far, you haven't pigged out on high fat junk food so you should feel satisfied, but not too full or bloated from your nutritional choices. Good!
Let things settle in your stomach for a while, but keep a close eye on the time. Because within that next two hours, you need to consume another small, solid food meal, and a serving of VP2!
Once again, keep this second food meal small and simple. Convenience is a key factor to compliance, so a neat trick I instruct athletes that are unaccustomed to this style of eating is to simply split their regular meal into two portions. One serving within 30 minutes after training (after the VP2/carbohydrate drink) and the other about an hour or so later.
Take your second serving of VP2 and micronized creatine with your second food meal. Remember, insulin levels are now high and nutrient transport into muscles is still accelerated. Therefore, your second serving of VP2 and creatine will be channeled directly to muscle anabolism! Just a few stirs of a spoon in cold water and VP2 is dissolved! It's light and easy to drink, and therefore should be a cinch to put down at this time.
A recap on the Anabolic Nutrient Timing Factor.
Within this critical 3-hour period, you have easily consumed 4 small, rapidly absorbing meals; two liquid and two solid-food. By following this supplement timing schedule you will provide an insulin peak directly after training and then keep blood glucose and insulin levels constant for the hours following (4).
This timing schedule will also provide a surge of quality proteins right when your muscles desperately need them. Then maintain a steady stream of amino acids channeled directly to muscle growth.
How much protein, how many carbohydrates?
Ideally, if you only train once a day, during the 3 hours post training you should aim to consume around one-third of your total daily caloric intake. This should come from approximately 33% of your daily protein intake and 45% of your daily carbohydrate intake. To determine this is easy.
Simply go to our Nutrition Calculator to determine the exact amount of protein, fat and carbohydrates you need each day. Then calculate 33% of your daily protein intake, and 45% of your daily carbohydrate intake.
First example, a 210-pound person on 3150-calorie/day intake should aim to consume
•   133 grams (532 calories) of protein from a 402 gram/day protein intake (33 x 402/100=133)
•   127 grams (508 calories) of carbohydrates from a 283.5 gram/day carbohydrate intake (45 x 283.5/100=127)
•   This equals a total of 1040 calories, just under 1/3 of a 3150 daily calorie intake. This allows for some fat that will naturally occur in the foods selected.
Another example, a 110-pound person, on a 1650 daily calorie intake
•   33% of a 210.4 gram daily protein intake = 69.5 grams (278 calories)
•   45% of a 148.5 gram daily carbohydrate intake = 66.8 grams (267.2 calories)
•   A total of 545.2 calories. Just slightly under 1/3 of a 1650 calorie a day intake.
Remember, to produce the anabolic effect, the type, quality and timing of these calories is far more critical than an exact number. What you consume within these three hours will determine the rate of your recovery and the level of adaptation you achieve from any type of athletic training. More than at any other period of the day, the nutrients you consume will be directed toward muscle recovery and growth.
If you are smart enough to lift weights, be concerned with obtaining the best results from your efforts. That means getting the nutrient timing factor right. In this article we have detailed the immediate 3-hours after training. Look for my article "The Right Carbs for Building Muscle". It will detail how to manage nutrition and insulin 24:7, to maintain a permanent state of anabolism.

References
1. Wolfe R, et al. Insulin action on muscle protein kinetics and amino acid transport during recovery after resistance exercise. Diabetes 48:949-957,1999.
2. Rasmussen B, et al. An oral essential amino acid-carbohydrate supplement enhances muscle protein anabolism after resistance exercise. J. Appl. Physiol. 88:386-392,2000.
3. Bolio GYR, et al. An abundant supply of amino acids enhances the metabolic effect of exercise on muscle protein. Am.J.Physiol.Endo Metab.273:E122-E129,1997.
4. Brand-Miller J. The GI factor- the glucose revolution. Hodder publishing 1998.
5. Guerrero-Ontivers, M.L. and Wallimann, T. 1998 Creatine supplementation in Health and Disease. Effects of chronic creatine ingestion in vivo: Down regulation of the expression of creatine transporter isoforms in skeletal muscle. Molecular and Cellular Biochemistry. 184: 427-437.
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