avstemning
Spørsmål: Evolusjon/skapelse - hva tror du på?
Jeg tror på evolusjonsteorien - 93 (71.5%)
Jeg tror både på evolusjonsteorien og på Gud - 15 (11.5%)
Jeg tror at Gud skapte verden, og at evolusjonsteorien er feil, men verden er likevel gammel - 5 (3.8%)
Jeg tror at Gud skapte verden for under 10.000 år siden, og at evolusjonsteorien er feil - 5 (3.8%)
Vet ikke/ingen formening - 12 (9.2%)
Stemmer totalt: 126

Skrevet av Emne: Evolusjon vs skapelse  (Lest 199847 ganger)

JohnBlond

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Sv: Evolusjon vs skapelse
« #720 : 11. desember 2007, 12:12 »
Det viktigste er ikke hvem som skapte deg, men at du er skapt.

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Sv: Evolusjon vs skapelse
« #721 : 11. desember 2007, 13:01 »
Om kreasjonistene stiller ett spørsmål som vitenskapen enda ikke kan gi ett fullgodt svar på, så betyr ikke det att de vinner på "walkover".

Bingo.

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Sv: Evolusjon vs skapelse
« #722 : 11. desember 2007, 13:04 »
Jeg innser først nå at jeg faktisk sitter og skriver side opp og side ned i debatt med en voksen mann som tror at universet er >10 000 år gammelt, at dinosaurer levde samtidig med mennesker, og at det hele støttes av vitenskaplig empiri.

Jeg har en eksamen å lese til ...

Ting tar tid!
Ikke at jeg vil påberope meg inteligens - det har mer med det gamle ordtaket "brent barn skyr ilden" å gjøre.... Jeg har nå uansett gått så inderlig møkk lei av å diskutere fag med religiøse fundamentalister - men gudene skal vite at jeg sløste bort noen timer på dem forran tastaturert i yngre år....

Juleklem til dere alle - både kristne/muslimske fundamentalister og mer hedenske folk

Øyvind F - Homo sapiens sapiens (enn så lenge)


Kontinuitet er nøkkelen!

Want to lose that beer belly, Bob? I have a nutty idea. Put down the fucking beer

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Sv: Evolusjon vs skapelse
« #723 : 11. desember 2007, 13:23 »
Iom att vitenskapen hele tiden er i utvikling, så er dette en evigvarende diskusjon. Sannheten er det vi vet , derfor vil det alltid være ubesvarte spørsmål.

Siden det er umulig å bevise att gud eksisterer, så vender kreasjonisten seg til det motsatte, nemlig å forsøke å bevise att alle som hevder att gud ikke eksisterer, tar feil.
Og iom att det alltid vil dukke opp ett nytt spørsmål for hvert svar som dukker opp, så vil dette ingen ende ta.

En ting er i alle fall sikkert, og det er att om noen "designet" livet på jorda, så kan ikke vedkommende ha vært mye intelligent!
Keep
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Stupid!

If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things.
—Rene Descartes


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Sv: Evolusjon vs skapelse
« #724 : 12. desember 2007, 07:15 »
Allikevel har det hendt at enkelte dyr har måttet klassifiseres under andre raser enn først antat. Merkelig skulle trodd det var større skille mellom det forskjellige rasene siden de ikke kan krysse denne magiske grensen din.

Grensen du snakker om som folk ikke klarer å bryte med avl, hvor går den. Når ein ser alt som har blitt gjort det siste tiårene med dyr som brukes i matproduksjon, riktig nok ved hjelp av diverse medikamenter.


Har vel sagt dette noen ganger nå, men poenget er at hvis man avler og avler for å forandre på et dyr eller en egenskap til et dyr, f.eks. størrelse, kan man avle en stund og få resultater, men så blir det vanskeligere å vanskeligere. Hvorfor det? Fordi man nærmer seg grensen for dyreslagets genetiske betingelser. Man kan ikke si ektsagt hvor grensen går. Det må man bare teste ut gjennom avl og se hvor langt man kommer. Genene tillater en variasjon innenfor dyreslaget innenfor visse områder. Dette er like mye et bevis på at skaperen har tenkt på at det er nødvendig med en viss genetisk mangfold innenfor de bestemte dyreslagene, slik at de kan tilpasse seg ulike klimaer, bekjempe sykdom osv.

Evolusjonsteorien sier at sånne grenser fint kan overskrides, selv om avl sier noe annet. Bare det går lang nok tid, så går det likevel sier teorien. Og denne gangen snakker vi ikke bare om at griser skal bli større eller kuer skal få mer melk. Vi snakker nye organer, fjær, ny type skjelett, varmblods - kaldblods osv. Det er usannsynlig at et dyr plutselig skal begynne å få et helt nytt organ inni seg, og som i tillegg er nyttig. Blir dyret født med et ferdig funksjonelt nytt organ, eller fødes dyret med 10 % av organet, og så får ungen 12 % av organet osv. helt til det nye organet er der? Og hvem skal dyret med 10 % av et nytt organ gifte seg med? Da må dette dyret pare seg med et normalt dyr, og så er misdannelsen vannet ut igjen. Nei, dette er usannsynlig.

Som du sier så er mange dyrearter eller raser et resultat av bevisst avl som aldri ville ha funnet sted i naturen. Fete griser og kuer med digre jur ville ha vært et lett bytte i naturen, slik at denne variasjonen ikke ville ha funnet sted hadde det ikke vært for mennesker.

Dersom designet til denne skaperen er så feil fritt synest jeg det er merkelig at det skal finest sult. Hvorfor er ikke mennesket istand til å gjøre bedre nytte av næringen den tar til seg?

Apropo sult: Fedre skal ikke lide døden for det barna har gjort, og ikke barn for det fedrene har gjort. Enhver skal dø for sin egen synd.

5.Mos.24:16

For han er nådig og barmhjertig, langmodig og rik på miskunn...

Joel 2:13

Synest disse to sitatene fra bibelen strider ganske imot fortellinga om Adam og Eva.

Det finnes sult fordi det finnes ondskap i verden. Verden har kapasitet nok til matproduksjon til alle. Folk kan skylde på Gud fordi det er sult, men hvis noen har blod på hendene så er det oss i vesten. Vi kan fint gjøre mer for de som sulter hvis vi vil. Vi har mye mer enn vi trenger her i vesten. Folk dør ikke av sult fordi fedrene deres var onde. Vi i vesten kunne ha gjort mer for å bekjempe sult.

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Sv: Evolusjon vs skapelse
« #725 : 12. desember 2007, 08:03 »
Har vel sagt dette noen ganger nå, men poenget er at hvis man avler og avler for å forandre på et dyr eller en egenskap til et dyr, f.eks. størrelse, kan man avle en stund og få resultater, men så blir det vanskeligere å vanskeligere. Hvorfor det? Fordi man nærmer seg grensen for dyreslagets genetiske betingelser. Man kan ikke si ektsagt hvor grensen går. Det må man bare teste ut gjennom avl og se hvor langt man kommer. Genene tillater en variasjon innenfor dyreslaget innenfor visse områder. Dette er like mye et bevis på at skaperen har tenkt på at det er nødvendig med en viss genetisk mangfold innenfor de bestemte dyreslagene, slik at de kan tilpasse seg ulike klimaer, bekjempe sykdom osv.

Evolusjonsteorien sier at sånne grenser fint kan overskrides, selv om avl sier noe annet. Bare det går lang nok tid, så går det likevel sier teorien. Og denne gangen snakker vi ikke bare om at griser skal bli større eller kuer skal få mer melk. Vi snakker nye organer, fjær, ny type skjelett, varmblods - kaldblods osv. Det er usannsynlig at et dyr plutselig skal begynne å få et helt nytt organ inni seg, og som i tillegg er nyttig. Blir dyret født med et ferdig funksjonelt nytt organ, eller fødes dyret med 10 % av organet, og så får ungen 12 % av organet osv. helt til det nye organet er der? Og hvem skal dyret med 10 % av et nytt organ gifte seg med? Da må dette dyret pare seg med et normalt dyr, og så er misdannelsen vannet ut igjen. Nei, dette er usannsynlig.

Som du sier så er mange dyrearter eller raser et resultat av bevisst avl som aldri ville ha funnet sted i naturen. Fete griser og kuer med digre jur ville ha vært et lett bytte i naturen, slik at denne variasjonen ikke ville ha funnet sted hadde det ikke vært for mennesker.

Hva mener du med å overskride "slike" grenser?
Hva legger du i et dyreslags genetiske betingelser?
Hva legger du i "nye typer skjelett"?
Hvilke nye organer er det egentlig du snakker om?
Hva er problemet med at noen dyregrupper er vekselvarme, noen delvis vekselvarme og noen jevnvarme?


Kontinuitet er nøkkelen!

Want to lose that beer belly, Bob? I have a nutty idea. Put down the fucking beer

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Sv: Evolusjon vs skapelse
« #726 : 12. desember 2007, 08:35 »
Nå er jeg langt fra noen evolusjonsbiolog, men med mine elementære naturfagkunnskaper så vet jeg følgende:

Etterhvert som evolusjonen skrider frem, så skjer det en hierarkisk oppdeling av artene. Derfor er det fundamentalt feil å spørre hvorfor en ku ikke blir til en hest bare man venter lenge nok. Som grenene på ett tre ikke kan vokse sammen til en gren igjen etter att en oppdeling har funnet sted, så kan heller ikke ulike dyreslag bli til det samme dyreslaget igjen. Hesten og kua er to ulike dyreslag. Kua tilhører kløvdyrfamilien (sammen med elg,rådyr etc), mens hesten tilhører hovdyr familien (sammen med esel). De har en felles stamfar, men det er umulig å få utviklingen til å gå bakover.
 
Om jeg planter ett epletre i hagen min, og venter 100 000 år, så har ikke epletreet blitt til et pæretre!
Oppdelingen har allerede funnet sted, og etterhvert som den fremskrider, så blir utviklingspotensialet til det enkelte dyreslaget mindre og mindre. Jo lengere opp i toppen av treet man kommer, desto tynnere blir grenene.

Spørsmålene du stiller vitner om en fundamental misforstålese og mangel på kunnskap om emnet du diskuterer.

Keep
It
Simple
Stupid!

If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things.
—Rene Descartes


Vinglelogg

Lenja AK. Mosjonist.

JohnBlond

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Sv: Evolusjon vs skapelse
« #727 : 12. desember 2007, 11:22 »
Ok, for å konkludere litt.

Til jul har jeg ønsket meg boken Dreams, "Evolution", and Value Fulfilment av Jane Roberts. Fra en av kommentarene til boken på Amazon.com:

5/5 Darwin had it wrong, and the Creationists also have it wrong, September 1, 2005
By  PenaltyShot (CA) - See all my reviews

Well, perhaps "wrong" is too strong a word, since there are truths embedded in each of the belief systems (or theories, if you'd like). But Seth's more all-encompassing explanation -- best read if you've started out with other Seth books first like "Seth Speaks" -- is shattering in its implications. Once you get your mind around the entire framework of it, it's also absolutely the most logical explanation, too, in my opinion.

Both Darwin and the literal Bible interpreters (Creationists) were/are working through a set of filters and by default, a more limited awareness of the true nature of reality. Seth's explanation, even if you don't buy into it 100% on the first read, is nonetheless extremely fascinating.

Also a comment on the excess verbiage by Robert Butts: Yes, sometimes he goes on too long with details such as, "Jane woke from trance a bit groggy." But all of Butts' comments are in italics, and I've learned from reading the other Seth books to just fast-forward over the italics. It's not that big of a deal once you program yourself to do that.


Så det så.

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Sv: Evolusjon vs skapelse
« #728 : 12. desember 2007, 14:44 »
1. Hva mener du med å overskride "slike" grenser?
2. Hva legger du i et dyreslags genetiske betingelser?
3. Hva legger du i "nye typer skjelett"?
4. Hvilke nye organer er det egentlig du snakker om?
5. Hva er problemet med at noen dyregrupper er vekselvarme, noen delvis vekselvarme og noen jevnvarme?

1. Det betyr at genene har begrenset informasjon. Grisen har ikke informasjon i genene til å lage fjær. Det er ikke bare å stokke om på et par-tre genbokstaver, slurve litt med kopieringa og vips så dukker det ei fjær eller ti opp. Det eksisterende materialet har likevel kapasitet til å bli modifisert til en viss grad, f.eks. andre farger på pelsen, vekst, lange/korte ben og sånn.
2. Det er vel egentlig som nr. 1.
3. Det er f.eks. fra dinosaurskjelett til fugleskjelett. Dinosaurskjelettet er massivt, mens fugleskjelettet er hult. Det er mye lettere. Hvis dinosaurer utviklet seg til fugler, måtte skjelettet transformere seg. (Samtidig måtte de få riktige fjær på riktige steder i riktige lag, en oljekjertel som smører fjærene slik at de ikke blir fillete etter en dags bruk, nytt pustesystem osv.)
4. En eller annen gang i utviklingen fikk jo organismene nye organer. De første landdyrene måtte jo få lunger en eller annen gang. De første øynene må jo komme en eller annen gang.
5. Joda, det finnes større forandringer enn å utvikle seg fra kaldblods til varmblods. Det er jo som navnet tilsier forskjell i kroppstemperatur. Er vel også noe med antall hjertekamre. Det er ikke her stridens kjerne er akkurat.

Nå er jeg langt fra noen evolusjonsbiolog, men med mine elementære naturfagkunnskaper så vet jeg følgende:

Etterhvert som evolusjonen skrider frem, så skjer det en hierarkisk oppdeling av artene. Derfor er det fundamentalt feil å spørre hvorfor en ku ikke blir til en hest bare man venter lenge nok. Som grenene på ett tre ikke kan vokse sammen til en gren igjen etter att en oppdeling har funnet sted, så kan heller ikke ulike dyreslag bli til det samme dyreslaget igjen. Hesten og kua er to ulike dyreslag. Kua tilhører kløvdyrfamilien (sammen med elg,rådyr etc), mens hesten tilhører hovdyr familien (sammen med esel). De har en felles stamfar, men det er umulig å få utviklingen til å gå bakover.
 
Om jeg planter ett epletre i hagen min, og venter 100 000 år, så har ikke epletreet blitt til et pæretre!
Oppdelingen har allerede funnet sted, og etterhvert som den fremskrider, så blir utviklingspotensialet til det enkelte dyreslaget mindre og mindre. Jo lengere opp i toppen av treet man kommer, desto tynnere blir grenene.

Spørsmålene du stiller vitner om en fundamental misforstålese og mangel på kunnskap om emnet du diskuterer.

Enten så har du ikke lest godt nok det jeg skriver, eller så prøver du å fordumme det. (Eller så har jeg ordlagt meg uklart.  Smiley) "Ku til hest" og "fluer til mygg" var eksempler jeg brukte for å billedgjøre hva jeg mener med makroevolusjon, hva som menes med et annet type dyr/organisme. Det er lettere å si "ku til hest" enn "fundamentale forandringer som medfører at man må klassifisere dyret som et annet dyreslag/familie". Jeg mente ikke bokstavelig at ku blir til hest om x millioner år. Men at kua og fisken og bananen ifølge teorien er i slekt mente jeg bokstavelig.

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Sv: Evolusjon vs skapelse
« #729 : 12. desember 2007, 15:09 »
Enten så har du ikke lest godt nok det jeg skriver, eller så prøver du å fordumme det. (Eller så har jeg ordlagt meg uklart.  Smiley) "Ku til hest" og "fluer til mygg" var eksempler jeg brukte for å billedgjøre hva jeg mener med makroevolusjon, hva som menes med et annet type dyr/organisme. Det er lettere å si "ku til hest" enn "fundamentale forandringer som medfører at man må klassifisere dyret som et annet dyreslag/familie". Jeg mente ikke bokstavelig at ku blir til hest om x millioner år. Men at kua og fisken og bananen ifølge teorien er i slekt mente jeg bokstavelig.

Her motsier du jo deg selv:

3. Det er f.eks. fra dinosaurskjelett til fugleskjelett. Dinosaurskjelettet er massivt, mens fugleskjelettet er hult. Det er mye lettere. Hvis dinosaurer utviklet seg til fugler, måtte skjelettet transformere seg. (Samtidig måtte de få riktige fjær på riktige steder i riktige lag, en oljekjertel som smører fjærene slik at de ikke blir fillete etter en dags bruk, nytt pustesystem osv.)

For att det skal kunne skje på denne måten så må jo evolusjone gå baklengs! Alle dinosaurer har ett felles opphav. Utfra det felles opphavet så har det utviklet seg forskjellige typer dinosaurer. Noen med massivt skjellet, noen med lett skjelett, noen som lever i havet osv osv.
Keep
It
Simple
Stupid!

If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things.
—Rene Descartes


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Lenja AK. Mosjonist.

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Sv: Evolusjon vs skapelse
« #730 : 12. desember 2007, 15:10 »
Jeg skjønner ikke at du kan ha mistet din kritiske sans og all logisk tankegang ovenfor religion. Religion er en måte å få makt over folk på. Det er mange penger å hente av at folk blir hjernevasket. Ser du (Mr T76) ikke dette?

Det er skremmende å se på at så mange folk lar seg lure. Jeg syns det er synd. Trist å se på.
Representanten for den lille mannen er den største av dem alle.

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Sv: Evolusjon vs skapelse
« #731 : 12. desember 2007, 15:26 »
Tenker du i det hele tatt før du gulper opp kreasjonistpropaganda? Eller er det bare blitt refleks?

Det finnes fossilserier som dokumenterer en rekke arters utvikling, hvilket er ganske imponerende tatt i betraktning at forskerne antar at langt over 90% av alle utdødde arter døde ut uten å etterlate seg fossile spor. Kan alle arters utvikling dokumenteres like sikkert med fossiler? Nei. Men det holder i grunnen med et par.

Dette er enda et eksempel på at man tolker fakta ulikt. Evolusjonister ser på kontinuiteten, kreasjonister ser på hullene.

Å sortere skjeletter i rekkefølge - hva beviser det? Man sier: "Skjelett X ligger begravet nederst og skjelett Y ligger begravet oppå. Disse skjelettene ligner på hverandre. Det beviser at de er i slekt." Prøv å si det i retten. For å sette det på spissen kan man ikke bevise at skjeletter eller fossiler fikk noen barn, i alle fall ikke forskjellige barn.

Hvorfor er likhet det samme som slektskap? Vannmelonen har ca 92 % vann sier en kilde. Skyer har 100 % vann. Missing link her må være maneter i sjøen som har mellom 94 og 98 % vann. Dette beviser at vannmelonen har utviklet seg til manet og videre til skyer. (Jada, nå sier du sikkert at jeg er heeeeelt idiot og sånn, men poenget er at likhet ikke nødvendigvis betyr slektskap. Det må flere beviser til. Hvor er de? Skulle hatt en kortversjon i stedet for lange Talk Origins-sider).

Man kan videre sammenligne kromosomer. Mennesket har 46 kromosomer, mens sjimpansen har 48. Beviser det slekt? Vel, tobakk har også 48 kromosomer, flaggermus har 44. Likhet er ikke det samme som slektskap. Det må flere beviser til.

At jeg blir begravet oppå et jordekorn når jeg dør, beviser ikke at jordekornet er min forfar. At dyr er begravet i ulike lag, kan vel så gjerne bevise at det har vært en naturkatastrofe. Det er naturlig at de som lever nærmest bunnen, som bunndyr i havet, deretter fisker blir begravet først. Fugler blir begravet lenger oppe i steinlagene, da disse kan fly rundt helt til de går tom, og dør dermed senere. Det er ulike sorteringsmekanismer.

Archaeopteryx er en egen art som er utdødd nå. At denne fuglen har likhetstrekk med dinosaurer er ikke bevis for at den stammer fra dinosaurene. De sier ”Se, her er linken mellom dinosaurer og fugler”, men unnlater å si at det ikke finnes en fossil som er 98 % Archaeopteryx, så 97 %, 96 % osv. Alle er 100 % sin egen art. Hvor er alle nesten-Archaeopteryxene?

Jeg synes ikke ikke-reduserbar kompleksitet er et dårlig argument. Når man både trenger munn, spiserør, magesekk, magesaft, ulike tarmer, enzymer og stoffer som kan plukke maten vi spiser fra hverandre og gjøre den nyttig for kroppen og kaste resten som bæsj, så er det jo ganske komplekst for å si det mildt. Hva utviklet seg først? Hvis en av delene mangler så ryker alt i hop. Oppstod alt samtidig? Var det først et dyr med bare magesekk som ble brukt til et slags lager, og så fikk den også en sikkerhetsventil i bunnen til å tømme sekken og så... Nei, det virker rart.

Synes også det er rart at hvis et dyr blir født med en skavank, f.eks. 1% av et øye. (La oss si dette var tiden da de ikke hadde øyer). Så måtte jo dette dyret med et begynnende øye "gifte seg" med et annet dyr for å få barn. Men siden ektemannen ikke hadde 1 % av et øye var det bare 50 % sjanse for at ungene fikk det. Når man tenker på hvor komplekst øyet er, virker det usannsynlig at denne prosessen skal gjenta seg og gjenta seg helt til øyet fungerer.

Her motsier du jo deg selv:

For att det skal kunne skje på denne måten så må jo evolusjone gå baklengs! Alle dinosaurer har ett felles opphav. Utfra det felles opphavet så har det utviklet seg forskjellige typer dinosaurer. Noen med massivt skjellet, noen med lett skjelett, noen som lever i havet osv osv.

Jeg skjønner ikke hva du mener. Hovedparten av evolusjonister tror at fugler stammer fra dinosaurer, gjør de ikke? Og nå karakteriserte jeg noen forskjeller mellom dinosaurer og fugler. Hvilke dinosaurer hadde lett skjelett?

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Sv: Evolusjon vs skapelse
« #732 : 12. desember 2007, 15:34 »
Jeg skjønner ikke at du kan ha mistet din kritiske sans og all logisk tankegang ovenfor religion. Religion er en måte å få makt over folk på. Det er mange penger å hente av at folk blir hjernevasket. Ser du (Mr T76) ikke dette?

Det er skremmende å se på at så mange folk lar seg lure. Jeg syns det er synd. Trist å se på.

Hvem som er lurt og ikke er en subjektiv oppfatning. Jeg prøver å lytte til hva hjertet mitt sier og være ærlig med meg selv. Ikke alle religioner er like heller.

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Sv: Evolusjon vs skapelse
« #733 : 12. desember 2007, 15:38 »
Evolution as Fact and Theory

by Stephen Jay Gould

K
irtley Mather, who died last year at age ninety, was a pillar of both science and Christian religion in America and one of my dearest friends. The difference of a half-century in our ages evaporated before our common interests. The most curious thing we shared was a battle we each fought at the same age. For Kirtley had gone to Tennessee with Clarence Darrow to testify for evolution at the Scopes trial of 1925. When I think that we are enmeshed again in the same struggle for one of the best documented, most compelling and exciting concepts in all of science, I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

According to idealized principles of scientific discourse, the arousal of dormant issues should reflect fresh data that give renewed life to abandoned notions. Those outside the current debate may therefore be excused for suspecting that creationists have come up with something new, or that evolutionists have generated some serious internal trouble. But nothing has changed; the creationists have presented not a single new fact or argument. Darrow and Bryan were at least more entertaining than we lesser antagonists today. The rise of creationism is politics, pure and simple; it represents one issue (and by no means the major concern) of the resurgent evangelical right. Arguments that seemed kooky just a decade ago have reentered the mainstream.

The basic attack of modern creationists falls apart on two general counts before we even reach the supposed factual details of their assault against evolution. First, they play upon a vernacular misunderstanding of the word "theory" to convey the false impression that we evolutionists are covering up the rotten core of our edifice. Second, they misuse a popular philosophy of science to argue that they are behaving scientifically in attacking evolution. Yet the same philosophy demonstrates that their own belief is not science, and that "scientific creationism" is a meaningless and self-contradictory phrase, an example of what Orwell called "newspeak."

In the American vernacular, "theory" often means "imperfect fact"—part of a hierarchy of confidence running downhill from fact to theory to hypothesis to guess. Thus creationists can (and do) argue: evolution is "only" a theory, and intense debate now rages about many aspects of the theory. If evolution is less than a fact, and scientists can't even make up their minds about the theory, then what confidence can we have in it? Indeed, President Reagan echoed this argument before an evangelical group in Dallas when he said (in what I devoutly hope was campaign rhetoric): "Well, it is a theory. It is a scientific theory only, and it has in recent years been challenged in the world of science—that is, not believed in the scientific community to be as infallible as it once was."

Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts do not go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's, but apples did not suspend themselves in mid-air, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from apelike ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other, yet to be discovered.

Moreover, "fact" does not mean "absolute certainty." The final proofs of logic and mathematics flow deductively from stated premises and achieve certainty only because they are not about the empirical world. Evolutionists make no claim for perpetual truth, though creationists often do (and then attack us for a style of argument that they themselves favor). In science, "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.

Evolutionists have been clear about this distinction between fact and theory from the very beginning, if only because we have always acknowledged how far we are from completely understanding the mechanisms (theory) by which evolution (fact) occurred. Darwin continually emphasized the difference between his two great and separate accomplishments: establishing the fact of evolution, and proposing a theory—natural selection—to explain the mechanism of evolution. He wrote in The Descent of Man: "I had two distinct objects in view; firstly, to show that species had not been separately created, and secondly, that natural selection had been the chief agent of change. . . . Hence if I have erred in . . . having exaggerated its [natural selection's] power . . . I have at least, as I hope, done good service in aiding to overthrow the dogma of separate creations."

Thus Darwin acknowledged the provisional nature of natural selection while affirming the fact of evolution. The fruitful theoretical debate that Darwin initiated has never ceased. From the 1940s through the 1960s, Darwin's own theory of natural selection did achieve a temporary hegemony that it never enjoyed in his lifetime. But renewed debate characterizes our decade, and, while no biologist questions the importance of natural selection, many doubt its ubiquity. In particular, many evolutionists argue that substantial amounts of genetic change may not be subject to natural selection and may spread through the populations at random. Others are challenging Darwin's linking of natural selection with gradual, imperceptible change through all intermediary degrees; they are arguing that most evolutionary events may occur far more rapidly than Darwin envisioned.

Scientists regard debates on fundamental issues of theory as a sign of intellectual health and a source of excitement. Science is—and how else can I say it?—most fun when it plays with interesting ideas, examines their implications, and recognizes that old information might be explained in surprisingly new ways. Evolutionary theory is now enjoying this uncommon vigor. Yet amidst all this turmoil no biologist has been lead to doubt the fact that evolution occurred; we are debating how it happened. We are all trying to explain the same thing: the tree of evolutionary descent linking all organisms by ties of genealogy. Creationists pervert and caricature this debate by conveniently neglecting the common conviction that underlies it, and by falsely suggesting that evolutionists now doubt the very phenomenon we are struggling to understand.

Secondly, creationists claim that "the dogma of separate creations," as Darwin characterized it a century ago, is a scientific theory meriting equal time with evolution in high school biology curricula. But a popular viewpoint among philosophers of science belies this creationist argument. Philosopher Karl Popper has argued for decades that the primary criterion of science is the falsifiability of its theories. We can never prove absolutely, but we can falsify. A set of ideas that cannot, in principle, be falsified is not science.

The entire creationist program includes little more than a rhetorical attempt to falsify evolution by presenting supposed contradictions among its supporters. Their brand of creationism, they claim, is "scientific" because it follows the Popperian model in trying to demolish evolution. Yet Popper's argument must apply in both directions. One does not become a scientist by the simple act of trying to falsify a rival and truly scientific system; one has to present an alternative system that also meets Popper's criterion — it too must be falsifiable in principle.

"Scientific creationism" is a self-contradictory, nonsense phrase precisely because it cannot be falsified. I can envision observations and experiments that would disprove any evolutionary theory I know, but I cannot imagine what potential data could lead creationists to abandon their beliefs. Unbeatable systems are dogma, not science. Lest I seem harsh or rhetorical, I quote creationism's leading intellectual, Duane Gish, Ph.D. from his recent (1978) book, Evolution? The Fossils Say No! "By creation we mean the bringing into being by a supernatural Creator of the basic kinds of plants and animals by the process of sudden, or fiat, creation. We do not know how the Creator created, what process He used, for He used processes which are not now operating anywhere in the natural universe [Gish's italics]. This is why we refer to creation as special creation. We cannot discover by scientific investigations anything about the creative processes used by the Creator." Pray tell, Dr. Gish, in the light of your last sentence, what then is scientific creationism?

Our confidence that evolution occurred centers upon three general arguments. First, we have abundant, direct, observational evidence of evolution in action, from both the field and laboratory. This evidence ranges from countless experiments on change in nearly everything about fruit flies subjected to artificial selection in the laboratory to the famous populations of British moths that became black when industrial soot darkened the trees upon which the moths rest. (Moths gain protection from sharp-sighted bird predators by blending into the background.) Creationists do not deny these observations; how could they? Creationists have tightened their act. They now argue that God only created "basic kinds," and allowed for limited evolutionary meandering within them. Thus toy poodles and Great Danes come from the dog kind and moths can change color, but nature cannot convert a dog to a cat or a monkey to a man.

The second and third arguments for evolution—the case for major changes—do not involve direct observation of evolution in action. They rest upon inference, but are no less secure for that reason. Major evolutionary change requires too much time for direct observation on the scale of recorded human history. All historical sciences rest upon inference, and evolution is no different from geology, cosmology, or human history in this respect. In principle, we cannot observe processes that operated in the past. We must infer them from results that still surround us: living and fossil organisms for evolution, documents and artifacts for human history, strata and topography for geology.

The second argument—that the imperfection of nature reveals evolution—strikes many people as ironic, for they feel that evolution should be most elegantly displayed in the nearly perfect adaptation expressed by some organisms—the camber of a gull's wing, or butterflies that cannot be seen in ground litter because they mimic leaves so precisely. But perfection could be imposed by a wise creator or evolved by natural selection. Perfection covers the tracks of past history. And past history—the evidence of descent—is the mark of evolution.

Evolution lies exposed in the imperfections that record a history of descent. Why should a rat run, a bat fly, a porpoise swim, and I type this essay with structures built of the same bones unless we all inherited them from a common ancestor? An engineer, starting from scratch, could design better limbs in each case. Why should all the large native mammals of Australia be marsupials, unless they descended from a common ancestor isolated on this island continent? Marsupials are not "better," or ideally suited for Australia; many have been wiped out by placental mammals imported by man from other continents. This principle of imperfection extends to all historical sciences. When we recognize the etymology of September, October, November, and December (seventh, eighth, ninth, and tenth), we know that the year once started in March, or that two additional months must have been added to an original calendar of ten months.

The third argument is more direct: transitions are often found in the fossil record. Preserved transitions are not common—and should not be, according to our understanding of evolution (see next section) but they are not entirely wanting, as creationists often claim. The lower jaw of reptiles contains several bones, that of mammals only one. The non-mammalian jawbones are reduced, step by step, in mammalian ancestors until they become tiny nubbins located at the back of the jaw. The "hammer" and "anvil" bones of the mammalian ear are descendants of these nubbins. How could such a transition be accomplished? the creationists ask. Surely a bone is either entirely in the jaw or in the ear. Yet paleontologists have discovered two transitional lineages of therapsids (the so-called mammal-like reptiles) with a double jaw joint—one composed of the old quadrate and articular bones (soon to become the hammer and anvil), the other of the squamosal and dentary bones (as in modern mammals). For that matter, what better transitional form could we expect to find than the oldest human, Australopithecus afarensis, with its apelike palate, its human upright stance, and a cranial capacity larger than any ape’s of the same body size but a full 1,000 cubic centimeters below ours? If God made each of the half-dozen human species discovered in ancient rocks, why did he create in an unbroken temporal sequence of progressively more modern features—increasing cranial capacity, reduced face and teeth, larger body size? Did he create to mimic evolution and test our faith thereby?

Faced with these facts of evolution and the philosophical bankruptcy of their own position, creationists rely upon distortion and innuendo to buttress their rhetorical claim. If I sound sharp or bitter, indeed I am—for I have become a major target of these practices.

I count myself among the evolutionists who argue for a jerky, or episodic, rather than a smoothly gradual, pace of change. In 1972 my colleague Niles Eldredge and I developed the theory of punctuated equilibrium. We argued that two outstanding facts of the fossil record—geologically "sudden" origin of new species and failure to change thereafter (stasis)—reflect the predictions of evolutionary theory, not the imperfections of the fossil record. In most theories, small isolated populations are the source of new species, and the process of speciation takes thousands or tens of thousands of years. This amount of time, so long when measured against our lives, is a geological microsecond. It represents much less than 1 per cent of the average life-span for a fossil invertebrate species—more than ten million years. Large, widespread, and well established species, on the other hand, are not expected to change very much. We believe that the inertia of large populations explains the stasis of most fossil species over millions of years.

We proposed the theory of punctuated equilibrium largely to provide a different explanation for pervasive trends in the fossil record. Trends, we argued, cannot be attributed to gradual transformation within lineages, but must arise from the different success of certain kinds of species. A trend, we argued, is more like climbing a flight of stairs (punctuated and stasis) than rolling up an inclined plane.

Since we proposed punctuated equilibria to explain trends, it is infuriating to be quoted again and again by creationists—whether through design or stupidity, I do not know—as admitting that the fossil record includes no transitional forms. Transitional forms are generally lacking at the species level, but they are abundant between larger groups. Yet a pamphlet entitled "Harvard Scientists Agree Evolution Is a Hoax" states: "The facts of punctuated equilibrium which Gould and Eldredge…are forcing Darwinists to swallow fit the picture that Bryan insisted on, and which God has revealed to us in the Bible."

Continuing the distortion, several creationists have equated the theory of punctuated equilibrium with a caricature of the beliefs of Richard Goldschmidt, a great early geneticist. Goldschmidt argued, in a famous book published in 1940, that new groups can arise all at once through major mutations. He referred to these suddenly transformed creatures as "hopeful monsters." (I am attracted to some aspects of the non-caricatured version, but Goldschmidt's theory still has nothing to do with punctuated equilibrium—see essays in section 3 and my explicit essay on Goldschmidt in The Pandas Thumb.) Creationist Luther Sunderland talks of the "punctuated equilibrium hopeful monster theory" and tells his hopeful readers that "it amounts to tacit admission that anti-evolutionists are correct in asserting there is no fossil evidence supporting the theory that all life is connected to a common ancestor." Duane Gish writes, "According to Goldschmidt, and now apparently according to Gould, a reptile laid an egg from which the first bird, feathers and all, was produced." Any evolutionists who believed such nonsense would rightly be laughed off the intellectual stage; yet the only theory that could ever envision such a scenario for the origin of birds is creationism—with God acting in the egg.

I am both angry at and amused by the creationists; but mostly I am deeply sad. Sad for many reasons. Sad because so many people who respond to creationist appeals are troubled for the right reason, but venting their anger at the wrong target. It is true that scientists have often been dogmatic and elitist. It is true that we have often allowed the white-coated, advertising image to represent us—"Scientists say that Brand X cures bunions ten times faster than…" We have not fought it adequately because we derive benefits from appearing as a new priesthood. It is also true that faceless and bureaucratic state power intrudes more and more into our lives and removes choices that should belong to individuals and communities. I can understand that school curricula, imposed from above and without local input, might be seen as one more insult on all these grounds. But the culprit is not, and cannot be, evolution or any other fact of the natural world. Identify and fight our legitimate enemies by all means, but we are not among them.

I am sad because the practical result of this brouhaha will not be expanded coverage to include creationism (that would also make me sad), but the reduction or excision of evolution from high school curricula. Evolution is one of the half dozen "great ideas" developed by science. It speaks to the profound issues of genealogy that fascinate all of us—the "roots" phenomenon writ large. Where did we come from? Where did life arise? How did it develop? How are organisms related? It forces us to think, ponder, and wonder. Shall we deprive millions of this knowledge and once again teach biology as a set of dull and unconnected facts, without the thread that weaves diverse material into a supple unity?

But most of all I am saddened by a trend I am just beginning to discern among my colleagues. I sense that some now wish to mute the healthy debate about theory that has brought new life to evolutionary biology. It provides grist for creationist mills, they say, even if only by distortion. Perhaps we should lie low and rally around the flag of strict Darwinism, at least for the moment—a kind of old-time religion on our part.

But we should borrow another metaphor and recognize that we too have to tread a straight and narrow path, surrounded by roads to perdition. For if we ever begin to suppress our search to understand nature, to quench our own intellectual excitement in a misguided effort to present a united front where it does not and should not exist, then we are truly lost.

[ Stephen Jay Gould, "Evolution as Fact and Theory," Discover 2 (May 1981): 34-37; Reprinted here with permission from Hen's Teeth and Horse's Toes, New York: W. W. Norton & Company, 1994, pp. 253-262. ]

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_fact-and-theory.html

Utlogget Zuul

Sv: Evolusjon vs skapelse
« #734 : 12. desember 2007, 15:39 »
Evolution is a Fact and a Theory
by Laurence Moran
Copyright © 1993-2002
[Last Update: January 22, 1993]

W hen non-biologists talk about biological evolution they often confuse two different aspects of the definition. On the one hand there is the question of whether or not modern organisms have evolved from older ancestral organisms or whether modern species are continuing to change over time. On the other hand there are questions about the mechanism of the observed changes... how did evolution occur? Biologists consider the existence of biological evolution to be a fact. It can be demonstrated today and the historical evidence for its occurrence in the past is overwhelming. However, biologists readily admit that they are less certain of the exact mechanism of evolution; there are several theories of the mechanism of evolution. Stephen J. Gould has put this as well as anyone else:

    In the American vernacular, "theory" often means "imperfect fact"--part of a hierarchy of confidence running downhill from fact to theory to hypothesis to guess. Thus the power of the creationist argument: evolution is "only" a theory and intense debate now rages about many aspects of the theory. If evolution is worse than a fact, and scientists can't even make up their minds about the theory, then what confidence can we have in it? Indeed, President Reagan echoed this argument before an evangelical group in Dallas when he said (in what I devoutly hope was campaign rhetoric): "Well, it is a theory. It is a scientific theory only, and it has in recent years been challenged in the world of science--that is, not believed in the scientific community to be as infallible as it once was."

    Well evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape-like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered.

    Moreover, "fact" doesn't mean "absolute certainty"; there ain't no such animal in an exciting and complex world. The final proofs of logic and mathematics flow deductively from stated premises and achieve certainty only because they are not about the empirical world. Evolutionists make no claim for perpetual truth, though creationists often do (and then attack us falsely for a style of argument that they themselves favor). In science "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional consent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.

    Evolutionists have been very clear about this distinction of fact and theory from the very beginning, if only because we have always acknowledged how far we are from completely understanding the mechanisms (theory) by which evolution (fact) occurred. Darwin continually emphasized the difference between his two great and separate accomplishments: establishing the fact of evolution, and proposing a theory--natural selection--to explain the mechanism of evolution.

    - Stephen J. Gould, " Evolution as Fact and Theory"; Discover, May 1981

Gould is stating the prevailing view of the scientific community. In other words, the experts on evolution consider it to be a fact. This is not an idea that originated with Gould as the following quotations indicate:

    Let me try to make crystal clear what is established beyond reasonable doubt, and what needs further study, about evolution. Evolution as a process that has always gone on in the history of the earth can be doubted only by those who are ignorant of the evidence or are resistant to evidence, owing to emotional blocks or to plain bigotry. By contrast, the mechanisms that bring evolution about certainly need study and clarification. There are no alternatives to evolution as history that can withstand critical examination. Yet we are constantly learning new and important facts about evolutionary mechanisms.

    - Theodosius Dobzhansky "Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution", American Biology Teacher vol. 35 (March 1973) reprinted in Evolution versus Creationism, J. Peter Zetterberg ed., ORYX Press, Phoenix AZ 1983

Also:

    It is time for students of the evolutionary process, especially those who have been misquoted and used by the creationists, to state clearly that evolution is a fact, not theory, and that what is at issue within biology are questions of details of the process and the relative importance of different mechanisms of evolution. It is a fact that the earth with liquid water, is more than 3.6 billion years old. It is a fact that cellular life has been around for at least half of that period and that organized multicellular life is at least 800 million years old. It is a fact that major life forms now on earth were not at all represented in the past. There were no birds or mammals 250 million years ago. It is a fact that major life forms of the past are no longer living. There used to be dinosaurs and Pithecanthropus, and there are none now. It is a fact that all living forms come from previous living forms. Therefore, all present forms of life arose from ancestral forms that were different. Birds arose from nonbirds and humans from nonhumans. No person who pretends to any understanding of the natural world can deny these facts any more than she or he can deny that the earth is round, rotates on its axis, and revolves around the sun.

    The controversies about evolution lie in the realm of the relative importance of various forces in molding evolution.

    - R. C. Lewontin "Evolution/Creation Debate: A Time for Truth" Bioscience 31, 559 (1981) reprinted in Evolution versus Creationism, op cit.

This concept is also explained in introductory biology books that are used in colleges and universities (and in some of the better high schools). For example, in some of the best such textbooks we find:

    Today, nearly all biologists acknowledge that evolution is a fact. The term theory is no longer appropriate except when referring to the various models that attempt to explain how life evolves... it is important to understand that the current questions about how life evolves in no way implies any disagreement over the fact of evolution.

    - Neil A. Campbell, Biology 2nd ed., 1990, Benjamin/Cummings, p. 434

Also:

    Since Darwin's time, massive additional evidence has accumulated supporting the fact of evolution--that all living organisms present on earth today have arisen from earlier forms in the course of earth's long history. Indeed, all of modern biology is an affirmation of this relatedness of the many species of living things and of their gradual divergence from one another over the course of time. Since the publication of The Origin of Species, the important question, scientifically speaking, about evolution has not been whether it has taken place. That is no longer an issue among the vast majority of modern biologists. Today, the central and still fascinating questions for biologists concern the mechanisms by which evolution occurs.

    - Helena Curtis and N. Sue Barnes, Biology 5th ed. 1989, Worth Publishers, p. 972

One of the best introductory books on evolution (as opposed to introductory biology) is that by Douglas J. Futuyma, and he makes the following comment:

    A few words need to be said about the "theory of evolution," which most people take to mean the proposition that organisms have evolved from common ancestors. In everyday speech, "theory" often means a hypothesis or even a mere speculation. But in science, "theory" means "a statement of what are held to be the general laws, principles, or causes of something known or observed." as the Oxford English Dictionary defines it. The theory of evolution is a body of interconnected statements about natural selection and the other processes that are thought to cause evolution, just as the atomic theory of chemistry and the Newtonian theory of mechanics are bodies of statements that describe causes of chemical and physical phenomena. In contrast, the statement that organisms have descended with modifications from common ancestors--the historical reality of evolution--is not a theory. It is a fact, as fully as the fact of the earth's revolution about the sun. Like the heliocentric solar system, evolution began as a hypothesis, and achieved "facthood" as the evidence in its favor became so strong that no knowledgeable and unbiased person could deny its reality. No biologist today would think of submitting a paper entitled "New evidence for evolution;" it simply has not been an issue for a century.

    - Douglas J. Futuyma, Evolutionary Biology, 2nd ed., 1986, Sinauer Associates, p. 15

There are readers of these newsgroups who reject evolution for religious reasons. In general these readers oppose both the fact of evolution and theories of mechanisms, although some anti-evolutionists have come to realize that there is a difference between the two concepts. That is why we see some leading anti-evolutionists admitting to the fact of "microevolution"--they know that evolution can be demonstrated. These readers will not be convinced of the "facthood" of (macro)evolution by any logical argument and it is a waste of time to make the attempt. The best that we can hope for is that they understand the argument that they oppose. Even this simple hope is rarely fulfilled.

There are some readers who are not anti-evolutionist but still claim that evolution is "only" a theory which can't be proven. This group needs to distinguish between the fact that evolution occurs and the theory of the mechanism of evolution.

We also need to distinguish between facts that are easy to demonstrate and those that are more circumstantial. Examples of evolution that are readily apparent include the fact that modern populations are evolving and the fact that two closely related species share a common ancestor. The evidence that Homo sapiens and chimpanzees share a recent common ancestor falls into this category. There is so much evidence in support of this aspect of primate evolution that it qualifies as a fact by any common definition of the word "fact."

In other cases the available evidence is less strong. For example, the relationships of some of the major phyla are still being worked out. Also, the statement that all organisms have descended from a single common ancestor is strongly supported by the available evidence, and there is no opposing evidence. However, it is not yet appropriate to call this a "fact" since there are reasonable alternatives.

Finally, there is an epistemological argument against evolution as fact. Some readers of these newsgroups point out that nothing in science can ever be "proven" and this includes evolution. According to this argument, the probability that evolution is the correct explanation of life as we know it may approach 99.9999...9% but it will never be 100%. Thus evolution cannot be a fact. This kind of argument might be appropriate in a philosophy class (it is essentially correct) but it won't do in the real world. A "fact," as Stephen J. Gould pointed out (see above), means something that is so highly probable that it would be silly not to accept it. This point has also been made by others who contest the nit-picking epistemologists.

    The honest scientist, like the philosopher, will tell you that nothing whatever can be or has been proved with fully 100% certainty, not even that you or I exist, nor anyone except himself, since he might be dreaming the whole thing. Thus there is no sharp line between speculation, hypothesis, theory, principle, and fact, but only a difference along a sliding scale, in the degree of probability of the idea. When we say a thing is a fact, then, we only mean that its probability is an extremely high one: so high that we are not bothered by doubt about it and are ready to act accordingly. Now in this use of the term fact, the only proper one, evolution is a fact. For the evidence in favor of it is as voluminous, diverse, and convincing as in the case of any other well established fact of science concerning the existence of things that cannot be directly seen, such as atoms, neutrons, or solar gravitation ....

    So enormous, ramifying, and consistent has the evidence for evolution become that if anyone could now disprove it, I should have my conception of the orderliness of the universe so shaken as to lead me to doubt even my own existence. If you like, then, I will grant you that in an absolute sense evolution is not a fact, or rather, that it is no more a fact than that you are hearing or reading these words.

    - H. J. Muller, "One Hundred Years Without Darwin Are Enough" School Science and Mathematics 59, 304-305. (1959) reprinted in Evolution versus Creationism op cit.

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